René Magritte, The Treachery of Images (Ceci n’est pas une pipe), 1929 (LACMA)
[0:00] [music]
Dr. Beth Harris: [0:04] Here we are in LACMA, and we’re looking at Magritte’s “The Treachery of Images” from 1929, or also called “Ceci n’est pas une pipe,” “This is not a pipe.”
Dr. Steven Zucker: [0:17] OK, but it’s a hilarious painting.
Dr. Harris: [0:20] It is hilarious. It’s an incredibly real painting of a pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [0:24] Well, Magritte paints in this incredibly wonderful matter-of-fact, absolutely mundane, illustrative style.
Dr. Harris: [0:31] Yes, like he was illustrating a catalog.
Dr. Zucker: [0:34] And with the words underneath, it’s as if you’re looking at one of the flashcards you would have as a child.
Dr. Harris: [0:39] Right, they would say “pipe,” but “This is not a pipe.”
Dr. Zucker: [0:43] That’s right, and of course he’s right. It’s not a pipe. It’s a painting of a pipe.
Dr. Harris: [0:45] But it is a pipe. But it is a pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [0:49] Where is the authority? Do we believe what we’re seeing in the veracity of the illustration, the perfect representation of the almost platonic pipe?
Dr. Harris: [1:00] It’s the ur-pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [1:01] It’s the ur-pipe, exactly. Or, do we believe the text underneath, which tells us it’s not a pipe? Which is stronger, the representation of the thing or the language that denies it?
Dr. Harris: [1:13] For me?
Dr. Zucker: [1:14] Yeah, for you.
Dr. Harris: [1:15] The picture of the pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [1:16] The picture of the pipe is more powerful than the language?
Dr. Harris: [1:20] Yes.
Dr. Zucker: [1:21] That’s so interesting, because I think for most…Maybe that’s because you’re an art historian and you just love…
Dr. Harris: [1:26] Maybe that’s why I became an art historian.
Dr. Zucker: [1:27] Maybe so.
Dr. Harris: [1:27] I believe whatever I see.
Dr. Zucker: [1:28] Because so many people believe what they read and in a sense I think the language has a kind of authority.
[1:33] For me, there’s this sort of perfect almost balance and struggle between the two where I just absolutely accept that pipe. It’s there. It’s this pipe. It’s this perfect representation of a pipe, and the language is completely denying it and has tremendous authority as well. It’s this fantastic tension between that presentation and then that rejection of the presentation.
Dr. Harris: [1:55] Then, of course, there’s the word “pipe” which is in a way just as much an abstraction from the actual item of the pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [2:04] Ah, OK. So the representation of the pipe is twofold. There’s the representation of the pipe…
Dr. Harris: [2:10] As an image.
Dr. Zucker: [2:11] as an image that’s iconic.
Dr. Harris: [2:13] Then, there’s the word…
Dr. Zucker: [2:15] This linguistic symbol.
Dr. Harris: [2:16] Yeah.
Dr. Zucker: [2:17] They’re both not a pipe.
Dr. Harris: [2:18] They’re both not a pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [2:19] That’s right. They’re both actually ways of representing a pipe, or our notion of what that pipe is in somebody’s mouth somewhere.
Dr. Harris: [2:27] What else could this be a picture of? It’s a picture of — it is a pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [2:31] So you’re denying the text?
Dr. Harris: [2:33] They occupy the same area. They’re both in the painting.
Dr. Zucker: [2:37] When Magritte paints this, he’s clearly challenging this notion of authority and which and what, and it’s really playful.
Dr. Harris: [2:44] Also, it’s challenging the whole illusionistic history of Western art, right?
Dr. Zucker: [2:48] No question about it. He’s doing it again with a faux naturalism, with this self-conscious naturalism which transcends naturalism in its self-reference.
Dr. Harris: [3:00] Perfectly painted and model of a pipe.
Dr. Zucker: [3:02] But also perfectly written text.
Dr. Harris: [3:03] It is.
Dr. Zucker: [3:04] Because the script is, again, the kind of didactic script that you would find in a kindergarten classroom, which is meant to be instructive and meant to be full of authority. This is a painting really about the denial of authorities of language and representation, isn’t it?
Dr. Harris: [3:21] I guess so. I remember when my daughter was really little and I woke up every morning and she looked at books with pictures just like this one, and then pointed and I had to give her the names for things.
Dr. Zucker: [3:31] And you could have screwed her up by giving her a book which said, “This is not a pipe.”
Dr. Harris: [3:34] Pipe. Not a pipe.
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